It always seems that every time around this time of year I get into a heated battle with my husband over religion.
I am Jewish
He is Lutheran
You would think after 23 years of marriage he would understand
that Tradition takes over in my brain and that I like observing the High holy days in my own special way.
No, I do not attend Temple I never did before.
And after the death of Misty, I seriously question the exsitance of God at all period. Yet my inner self still holds on to the traditions that were instilled in me as a child.
I was taught, that God is everywhere, he watches me all the time.
Yet, if that is true, why am I so miserable?
If God loves me, why doesn't he take my pain away?
These are all rhetorical questions. I don't expect any answers
The bottom line is, I know there is no such thing as God.
And the late great "George Carlin" said it best.
It is the Biggest BULLSHIT story ever told! LOL
So with that in mind...... my dear hubby calls me a Hypocrite
for saying I don't believe in god, yet I still observe Jewish Traditions every year.
I don't know maybe he is right?
I really don't see the harm in practicing a few simple traditions of
eating some matzo or lighting a candle.
But apparently it bugs my hubby to no end.
And every year we wind up in a battle over it.
Not a serious battle, as we do still love each other, and it is really not worth breaking up over.
But still it bugs me that he cannot accept some basic simple Traditions.
If practicing some traditons makes me a hyprocrite then so be it.
I just cannot help myself
That is because at times, I have no idea what to believe in anymore.
The older I get the more I think there is no such thing as God or heaven or Hell.
But yet these words are so ingrained in my mind that I cannot stop thinking about it.
Maybe, I am wrong??? Maybe there is a GOD after all?
I just do not know what to think.
So I consider myself a boarderline Agnostic.
But I have nothing bad to say about any die hard atheists who may be here. That is cool too
I just do NOT know what to believe in IF There IS anything TO
believe in period!
So what about you all?
Are you an Atheist?
Or Are you an Agnostic?
Am I alone in my thinking? Or does someone other then me is just as confused about the whole gosh darn thing, lol
An atheist Jewish friend of mine who was observing passover last year explained the difference to me between religious Judaism and cultural Judaism. I still don't get it. I have managed to make borderline racist(?) comments to a few people becuase I said they looked Jewish, when Jewish is not a race. It's a religion and a culture, but I still don't get it.
I absolutely hate it when people celebrate religious things (like xmas for example) when they are not christian, but that's my thing, not theirs. I am not christian, so I don't celebrate christian holidays. I'm not Jewish, so I don't celebrate/observe the Jewish ones, either.
But yeah, lots of people do.
I was raised culturally and kind of religiously Jewish, but since I don't believe in god at all and I think all religions are ridiculous and basically created to control people like sheep, I don't call myself Jewish anymore. You can't be in the Jewish country club (and that's what I think of all churches, they are basically just country clubs, with fucked up rules) if you don't believe god exists and you reject the Torah and all the religious texts. I'm not even culturally Jewish anymore, either, so why would I celebrate a religious holiday if I think it's pointless? Like Jo says, Judaism is a culture and a religion, just like Catholicism and Islam. You can be any race or color and also be Jewish or Muslim or Christian or anything you want, I have a Muslim friend who has blonde hair and blue eyes, it's just her religion. I'm a Caucasian American atheist, and that is all.
But if you, TW, feel like having some matzoh around the time of Passover, then you should have it. It's just a cracker for fuck's sake, it doesn't mean you have to pray to some kind of god to eat it. If you want hamantash around Purim, then why not? It's a lovely poppyseed treat. Food doesn't believe in god, either. I used to think that people of any religion were hypocritical for being totally non-religious all through the year, but then suddenly celebrating xmas or Easter or Passover or Chanukkah. I guess I don't care anymore because it's all hooey to me, so who cares if a year-long atheist goes to midnight mass? What really gets me going are the people who claim to be all religious and act like assholes. I had a co-worker who was a Seventh Day Adventist, gave a third of his salary to the church (and they are hardcore religious people, consumed with their religion in every aspect of their lives) and he was a total mean as shit asshole at work, a bully. That's more of a hypocrite in my mind---people who pretend to be so religious and they do fucked up mean stuff.
TW, if the rituals give you comfort, follow them. I don't see anything wrong with that - if it works for you - it's right for you.
I'm agnostic but I celebrate secular Christmas. I even think about going to mass once in a while, just for the ritual of it. I was raised Catholic, which is HEAVY on rituals - incense, the whole 9-yards. I love that stuff. I like the ritual of mass - the call and response with the priest and the congregation, the music, the sign of peace...
There is a church in Rochester NY that is a "break-away" church - they have been excommunicated and have ordained women and celebrate gay marriages. If I lived in Rochester I imagine I'd be involved with them. Amazing group of people. The sign of peace lasts about 15 minutes in that place and the whole congregation consecrates the eucharist together on the altar. It's a fabulous place and they do a TON of service work.
Anyway, that's all beside the point. If you find something of value in following some of your traditions, go for it. You aren't hurting anyone by doing that!
I live in the southern U.S., so I was sort of....culturally Christian, if there is such a thing, until I was about 25 or so. I ran across something in my reading that said "religion is whatever myth people currently believe." The implications of that statement pushed out whatever belief in a deity that I had. I consider myself atheist now.
Quote:I'm agnostic but I celebrate secular Christmas. I even think about going to mass once in a while, just for the ritual of it. I was raised Catholic, which is HEAVY on rituals - incense, the whole 9-yards. I love that stuff. I like the ritual of mass - the call and response with the priest and the congregation, the music, the sign of peace...
I agree. And I agree that rituals can give you comfort, and if they do, then enjoy them!
I haven't been inside a Catholic church since the 1990s, but I keep an Advent wreath with the properly colored candles, and I become wistful about Midnight Mass. It's a comforting ritual. It certainly reminds me of a time when the world was less gray to me, when (as a child) all I had to do was believe (in Jesus, in Mary, in Santa) and good things came my way. It was so much easier to believe back then that Jesus was a gift, a blessing, from God, that the little baby in the manger would save us with his love.
The rituals remind me of that more simpler time, perhaps. Who knows? It's too early in the morning for me to think too many deep thoughts, and I haven't even had my eggs yet.
I would also add that I see no reason to do away with rituals, merely because they may have a basis in religion. I do believe Christianity is on its way out, that we will see a greater secularism, but why should we give up Christmas? I love a season where we think of one another, where there is this special day or days to look forward to, where there will be good food, and gifts, and camaraderie, and nicely spiked egg nog, etc. Just because "Christmas" is supposed to be about "Christ", that doesn't mean it always has to be. It wasn't in the first place anyway! -- the Christmas tree was a germanic tradition that had nothing to do with any religion.
I'm agnostic - I don't believe that it's possible for us as human beings to understand the truth, whatever that truth may be. I was raised Presbyterian, though, and didn't break away from the church until I was in my mid 20s. I agree with what others are saying here about traditions being comforting. I don't celebrate easter any more, but I do celebrate a secular christmas because I love all of the secular/pagan traditions and find them comforting and nostalgic. It's not hypocritical to follow the traditions of your own heritage. And besides, what difference does it make? You're not hurting anyone or forcing your traditions on anyone, and anybody who hassles you about it should shut up and mind their own business.
Pretty much what others have said.
If you find comfort in rituals then do them. It shouldn't matter what they are based on and where they came from. If it makes you happy, helps you feel centered or whatever your reason- do it.
I am an atheist and was raised in a Christian family, but my parents were very open to my learning about religion and coming to accept it on my own. They weren't great with my rejecting it, but still believe that people should worship what they want and how they want as long as it doesn't hurt others. We switched churches often and because my parents encouraged free speech and though I was often kicked out of Sunday school and didn't otherwise participate in whatever rituals or traditions there may have been (with the exception of one pageant when I was Mary because I was the only girl old enough that fit the part- lol)
We do a non-religious Christmas, but I'm not a fan. We most definitely do not celebrate Easter (the idea of Christmas being goodwill, even the observed birthday of someone I'm fine with, raising from the dead? Are you SERIOUS!?) or any other holidays if there are others (!?)
Again- if it makes you happy, go for it. It's a personal choice and if your husband doesn't understand that's fine but he should respect your choice to participate.
Well thanks for the support gang I really appreciate it.
But the fact is not so much that I observe a few jewish traditions
That does not bother Bob at all.
What bothers him is, he see's me as a Hypocrite for doing so.
AND I can't tolerate him thinking that way about me.
I don't think I am being a hypocrite just because I value certain traditions.
Its not like I am attending Temple every Sat.
So, where does he get off calling me that??
Do I ever call him a Hyprocrite for cutting down an Xmas Tree and putting it up in the house.
Or for hanging up Xmas stockings? NO I have not..
But Trust me... This Xmas will be very different in this house.
If he so much as looks at an Xmas object, I will be right there with that H word, LOL
I don't see it as hypocritical. I'm atheist and put up a tree and do presents, though I tend to push for a non-traditional celebration. My parents are both Christian as are D's family so we feel pressured to participate on the level they expect too. If I had that much of a problem I wouldn't do it, but it's not a black and white issue so it's futile to call someone a hypocrite because they are observing some rituals and not others.
Speaking as a religious Jew here, I'd say that Bob just doesn't understand the complexities of human behavior. Judaism is different things to different people. It's not really a race per se, although there is a genetic aspect to it in some who are Jewish. It is a religion, but it's also a civilization or culture, a set of traditions that in some people have divorced themselves from the original theological purposes. It's no more hypocritical to eat matzoh on Pesach than it is to say "goodbye" (God be with ye) if you are an atheist or agnostic. That particular tradition is part of who you are, so you get to make its meaning hold whatever relevance you choose for your own life.
I'll give an example from my own life. I am a convert to Judaism. I converted 20 years ago, so pretty soon I will have been Jewish longer than I was Christian. Ironically to your story, TW, I was raised Lutheran. When I first converted, my family was a little freaked about what to for Christmas. Some of them gave me gifts wrapped in Chanukah paper; others stayed with the Christmas theme. I was ok with whatever as long as it wasn't overtly baby Jesus. I have never given up the ideals of Christmas that I consider to be religiously neutral. I have no problem with a Jew having a Christmas tree. Those things are part of who I am and don't go against what I believe, so I don't feel in the least hypocritical.
I wish you were in an area large enough to have a Humanist synagogue. Essentially they have realized the ideas that Reconstructionist Judaism put forth originally. They do all the cultural stuff but keep God out of it. That would probably be ideal for someone like you because then you could be with other Jews who want to keep the traditions alive but reject the idea of a theistic culture.
Various cultures have traditions that have nothing to do with religion, but everything to do with history. England and Guy Fawkes, Mexico and bullfighting, running the bulls in Pamplona, several US holidays.
Remove the religion, and most Jewish holidays can be summed up as, "They tried to kill us, we survived, let's eat!" Probably a LOT of holidays for many cultures can be summed up that way. Tell Bob that you aren't worshipping anyone, you're remembering history. If he has a problem with that, he can't have any more 4th of July, Labor Day or Memorial Day picnics, and definitely no more Thanksgiving feeds.
I can probably help you understand Bob's POV as I tend to think in black and white, and when I ditched christianity, I ditched everything associated with it. That is who I am, and I would consider it hypocritical for me to do otherwise.
It's because those holidays are RELIGIOUS to some people. Myself included. It's a religious holiday, always has been and always will be in my mind, and because I'm not religious, I don't observe.
Most people on this board believe they are secular holidays. So they pick and choose what portions of the holiday they like and give them joy and celebrate those portions. For me, it would be like being a vegetarian SOME of the time. Or wearing hijab SOME of the time. Or fasting on Fridays from sun up until sundown and fish on Tuesdays and holy water the rest of the time. LOL You get my drift. Some people take (Ramadan, fasting, Fridays, etc.) very seriously, and it's the way they participate in their religion. So for someone else to pick and choose goes counter to what they've been taught and what they believe.
My roommate once told me she considers herself christian although she does not believe Jesus was the son of god, nor did he die for her. I scratched my head on that one, but she said she gets comfort from going to church and the traditions and that I was too black and white in my thinking.
LOL indeed, I am!
TW
Religion is a complicated thing.
On some levels, I know exactly what you are going through.
DH and I are also Jewish. Neither of us grew up in strict religious households though....which leads me to the topic of being "hypocritical".
DHs brother/SIL
are hypocritical.
For example, when they were adding on an addition (illegally, to their home-with hired illegal help-and underpaying these guys), I thought it would be nice to treat the workers to lunch. So, I went to the local grocery store and bought a bunch of sandwiches and snacks. I went over to the house and found an old plastic platter to put the goodies on. SIL got home about 10 minutes later and saw the food (non-kosher) on the platter. She freaked out. She started screaming and yelling about how stupid I was to put food that was not Kosher on her dishes and how dare I buy food that was not Kosher in the first place.. She grabbed the platter and used her hand to scrape all of the food off of the platter and then turned around and threw the platter in the garbage.
Funny, a week later DH and I were walking in the neighborhood and who do we see eating at a NON-KOSHER restaurant? You guessed it!
Another example:
Prior to DH and I being married. We were living in different cities. DH got very ill and was hospitalized. I drove over 3 hours and spent 2 nights with him in the hospital. I helped him the entire time. I also helped him when he had to be DC'd. Helped him with his papers, meds, transportation, etc. He was too sick to travel, so, since he was in the same city as his brother, his brother insisted that he stay with them. Unfortunately, I assumed I would be allowed to stay there, too (being out of town and ready to marry him), but no. Brother and his wife told DH that I could NOT stay there. I would have to stay in a hotel. They said it was against their beliefs to have unmarried people sleeping together under the same roof....even if we were in separate rooms. WTF? I later found out, from talking to various mutual friends, that when DH's brother and wife were dating, they slept together at people's houses all of the time. They also allow their 16 year old daughter and her 17 year old BF, in the bedroom with the door locked, to "study". They allowed them to go on a trip to NY together, unsupervised.
One more, then I will stop (I could write a novel on their hypocritical Jewish lifestyle)....
They will not answer the phone, drive, etc. during Shabbat. DHs mom called the brother during this time because she was not feeling well and needed help. His brother freaked out and told their mom to NEVER call during this time, again (due to religious reasons, even though the religion states that in time of illness it is ok).
Hmmmm, a few months later, who drives to the airport and takes the red-eye flight on Friday night because the flight was cheaper? Bingo!!!!
beachbum Wrote:TW
Religion is a complicated thing.
On some levels, I know exactly what you are going through.
DH and I are also Jewish. Neither of us grew up in strict religious households though....which leads me to the topic of being "hypocritical".
DHs brother/SIL are hypocritical.
For example, when they were adding on an addition (illegally, to their home-with hired illegal help-and underpaying these guys), I thought it would be nice to treat the workers to lunch. So, I went to the local grocery store and bought a bunch of sandwiches and snacks. I went over to the house and found an old plastic platter to put the goodies on. SIL got home about 10 minutes later and saw the food (non-kosher) on the platter. She freaked out. She started screaming and yelling about how stupid I was to put food that was not Kosher on her dishes and how dare I buy food that was not Kosher in the first place.. She grabbed the platter and used her hand to scrape all of the food off of the platter and then turned around and threw the platter in the garbage.
Funny, a week later DH and I were walking in the neighborhood and who do we see eating at a NON-KOSHER restaurant? You guessed it!
Another example:
Prior to DH and I being married. We were living in different cities. DH got very ill and was hospitalized. I drove over 3 hours and spent 2 nights with him in the hospital. I helped him the entire time. I also helped him when he had to be DC'd. Helped him with his papers, meds, transportation, etc. He was too sick to travel, so, since he was in the same city as his brother, his brother insisted that he stay with them. Unfortunately, I assumed I would be allowed to stay there, too (being out of town and ready to marry him), but no. Brother and his wife told DH that I could NOT stay there. I would have to stay in a hotel. They said it was against their beliefs to have unmarried people sleeping together under the same roof....even if we were in separate rooms. WTF? I later found out, from talking to various mutual friends, that when DH's brother and wife were dating, they slept together at people's houses all of the time. They also allow their 16 year old daughter and her 17 year old BF, in the bedroom with the door locked, to "study". They allowed them to go on a trip to NY together, unsupervised.
One more, then I will stop (I could write a novel on their hypocritical Jewish lifestyle)....
They will not answer the phone, drive, etc. during Shabbat. DHs mom called the brother during this time because she was not feeling well and needed help. His brother freaked out and told their mom to NEVER call during this time, again (due to religious reasons, even though the religion states that in time of illness it is ok).
Hmmmm, a few months later, who drives to the airport and takes the red-eye flight on Friday night because the flight was cheaper? Bingo!!!!
OMG Thank you so much for these story's Beachbum.
And Bob calls ME hypocritical, LOL
(shaking my head in disbelief)
After reading this I feel so much better about myself, thanks
Wow beachbum- your in-laws are not only hypocritical but ill-informed. They use their religion when it's convenient for them and nothing else, doesn't that defeat the true purpose? I'd be pissed too!
kirby Wrote:Wow beachbum- your in-laws are not only hypocritical but ill-informed. They use their religion when it's convenient for them and nothing else, doesn't that defeat the true purpose? I'd be pissed too!
I am pissed at them and I can't stand them. I've separated myself from them, completely. This is probably the biggest issue that DH and I fight about. As I wrote on the P&M thread, DH will side with them.
It makes me feel so isolated.
This February should be interesting because we are going on a cruise with his entire family. Some 35+ people.
Religion is suppose to bring out the good in people. To be honest, I've never met such mean people in my entire life. I've been treated better by complete strangers.
To add, they call themselves Orthodox..LOL!!! You're right Kirby, they definitely pick and choose what
they want and what sounds good at the time.
beachbum - yuk! They sound terrible to deal with. I'm sorry these are you ILs. Sounds to me like she threw out the food and the platter more to hurt you than as a religious issue. I hope you are able to avoid them completely on the cruise. Good luck!!
No way are these people truly Orthodox. I was shocked to read that because that kind of behavior reminds me more of the Conservative movement, such as keeping a kosher home but eating non-kosher outside.
dune67 Wrote:No way are these people truly Orthodox. I was shocked to read that because that kind of behavior reminds me more of the Conservative movement, such as keeping a kosher home but eating non-kosher outside.
You're right Dune67, there is no way they are Orthodox. It is as though they love the idea of it, but it is just to strict for them to follow and they can't admit that it is. I would actually consider them, Reform/Liberal/Progressive (movements that believe that individuals can make choices about what traditions to follow).
This would make the most sense.
Then religion wouldn't be this non-stop, controlling guessing game with them and others in the family.
DH and I are going on a family cruise in February. BIL's kids have already stated that they will not eat anything prepared on the ship. They are going to bring their own food.
Hey, whatever floats your boat.
(Sorry, TW, I feel like I HJ your thread....)