We Kid You Not Childfree Forums

May 24, 2010
Looking Past the Children’s Menu
By SUSAN DOMINUS

Nicola Marzovilla runs a business, so when a client at his Gramercy Park restaurant, I Trulli, asks for a children’s menu, he does not say what he really thinks. What he says is, “I’m sure we can find something on the menu your child will like.” What he thinks is, “Children’s menus are the death of civilization.”

Parents have so come to expect the safe fare (and cheaper prices) of a children’s menu that Fornino, a pizza restaurant in Park Slope, nearly faced a boycott when it opened earlier this month without one. But Mr. Marzovilla has never had one and swears he never will. Easy for him to say: He’s not in nurture-happy Park Slope, and maybe expectations are different at a restaurant where a plate of handmade pasta costs $24. But even if he were running a pizza joint, he would never offer children what he considers a “dumbed down” menu on the side.

Mr. Marzovilla welcomes young children at his restaurant, even discounts their meals on Sunday evenings, and is not above serving a simple appetizer portion of pasta to please little ones. But he has strong opinions about food, and about the messages parents convey to their offspring through what they eat. Children’s menus aim too low, he argues — they’re a parenting crutch.

“The table is very important,” Mr. Marzovilla explained as we sat around one at his restaurant early Sunday evening with our five collective children. “It’s about nutrition, it’s about family; you go right down the line. And the children’s menu is about the opposite — it’s about making it quick, making it easy, and moving on.”

Mr. Marzovilla, 50, moved with his family to Arthur Avenue in the Bronx from the Puglia region of Italy when he was 11. Even if Mr. Marzovilla was not a foodie by profession, it would be important to him that his children try, say, octopus: “It’s my culture.”

He does not make it easy for his children to refuse new foods of any kind, a policy that has yielded a 14-year-old daughter who devours all manner of raw fish, a 17-year-old son who prefers his fish whole, and an 11-year-old daughter who slurps down snails in Chinatown with such relish that the waiters sometimes line up to stare.

Try it. No. Just try it. No. Just try it! No! — such is the dialogue that accompanies many a family meal, usually ending with the parent in defeat. How is it that Mr. Marzovilla encouraged them so successfully?

Everyone at the table had a good laugh at that one. “Encouraged: that’s a good word,” said Mr. Marzovilla.

“Try ‘forced,’ ” said Julia, the 14-year-old.

“There wasn’t a time we didn’t end up trying it,” said Domenico, the 17-year-old. “Sometimes it took longer than others.”

“You know, I’m their parent, I’m not their best friend,” Mr. Marzovilla noted. “I have a duty to mold and teach.”

Olivia, the 11-year-old, was looking at the menu. “How does fried rabbit taste?” she asked.

“Very good,” advised Domenico.

Mr. Marzovilla works most evenings, but the children sit down every night at their home in SoHo with his wife, Astrid, for a meal she cooked, usually no later than 6 p.m. It’s such a given that the children do not bother trying to negotiate their way out of it.

“Some parents, it’s important to them that their kids do sports,” Mr. Marzovilla said. “To me, it doesn’t mean a thing. To have this experience with their family is more important.”

The table was not just a place to eat for a young Mr. Marzovilla — it was a place to grow. At mealtime, he literally had a seat at the table, along with the adults and his older cousins. Two of his three siblings now live nearby, and their families often join forces in Chinatown or at their mother’s home in Murray Hill, where smaller children see older ones keeping it together for the course of the meal and eating whatever is put in front of them with an open mind.

It happened at our table Sunday at I Trulli. The restaurant experience of my twin boys, who will turn 4 this summer, extends to exactly one local diner, where, yes, they have been known to eat chicken fingers and fries. At a worshipful distance across the round table, they kept their eyes trained on Julia, Olivia and Domenico. Like them, my children devoured orecchiette with rabbit ragout. When offered a clam off the shell, one asked that I remove some brown stuff at the base — and then ate it. No, he didn’t like it. But he tried it.

“If you don’t ask your children to try things, how will they ever know what they’re capable of?” Mr. Marzovilla said. “And isn’t the same true of us?”

Comments here:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/25/nyregi...f=nyregion

Having grown up in the US--hell, the southern part of the US, I was, in fact, discouraged from trying anything interesting or good as a child. So of course, for a long time I was a very picky eater. I didn't realize until later that I was picky because the food on offer was downright horrible. Vegetables cooked until they turned grey and slimly (ewwwww…"Anastasia won't eat her vegetables!" I wonder why!), meat overcooked until it was hard, grey and black, everything boiled and fried to death--just try to get a fucking shrimp that wasn't fried into submission. And "Italian" food? That came from a Chef-Boy-Ar-Dee can, that's where ravioli comes from! I was skinny as hell, and hungry, too. Obviously there was something wrong with me, because I didn't like seafood, either. What was seafood? Fishsticks. I hated all that crap, but no one offered me anything different.

Then, as a young teenager, I heard the word "sushi" for the first time. I asked my mother what it was, for some reason she knew what it was, sort of, even though there were no sushi restaurants in our dumb redneck town at that time. She must have read about it somewhere or saw it on TV or something. I told her it sounded intriguing and I'd like to try it, and her response was to freak out and make me promise her I'd never, EVER! eat it because sushi kills people. That's right, folks, sushi kills, don't eat it.

My food IQ broadened tremendously when I moved to London in my mid-20s. I had to grow the fuck up and eat all kinds of stuff. Hell, I never even had an opportunity to eat friggin' asparagus until I got there. Now I'll eat or try nearly anything, and I still can't believe American parents refuse to teach their kids to eat anything other than peanut butter or Mac & Cheese.

My own aunt, all progressive and well-travelled and shit, coddled her fucking kid to the point where she was afraid of soup. Yes, soup. She was 16 at the time of her visit to me in Portland, Maine (a major foodie city, on par with San Francisco), and all she'd eat was hotdogs and other junk. She was terrified of miso soup at the Japanese restaurant, and she turned up her nose to lobster at Red's Eats in Wiscasset, the home of the most famous lobster roll in the US. She was horrified at the thought of tasting a tiny bit of lobster, nope, she needed her hotdog. I told her she was too old to eat like a 5 year-old, and everyone got really annoyed with me. Of course, what leg did I have to stand on? I was picky, too. But for fuck's sake, no one was offering me sushi, miso soup, and lobster roll when I was 16. It was McDonald's or bust.

European and Asian kids eat what their parents put in front of them. I see it at the dim sum houses here in San Diego, the Chinese kids eat the same exact food. Why are Americans so lame?

I agree that it's more important to be at the family dinner table than sports. I hear so many of my parent acquaintances complain about being busy with activities, like OMG they have to be involved.... I am sure their kids and the whole family would benefit just as much as sitting down together, slowing down, talking, and being involved in each others' lives as the sports.

I was a very picky child and my parents didn't push it on me too hard, which I am grateful for. Once I left my hometown and was exposed to more, I did broaden my horizons. I eat more and have more interest in food as an adult, but I think I just needed to grow up a bit. But like Anastasia, we didn't have much in my hometown either.

(05-30-2010 06:26 PM)CF Scorpio Wrote: [ -> ]“You know, I’m their parent, I’m not their best friend,” Mr. Marzovilla noted. “I have a duty to mold and teach.”

That's a big part of the problem. In order to please their "best friend", parents give in to kids' demands, which usually means eating at MacDonalds or Check E. Cheese or other trafickers of toxic garbage. Treating kids like kids and setting boundaries and rules is an unknown concept now.

I wish more places would get rid of those kiddy menus. But as long people continue to drag their kids to restaurants all the time instead of trying home made meals, restaurants will continue to capitalize on breeder stupidity.

tWhen my brothers and I were little we were usually given some of our parent's meal and preferred it to the boring children's menu. I can't stand dinning with adults who are afraid to try anything they consider " too exotic"-in one case sweet and sour chicken at the mall. I know 2 adult women who subsist on peanut butter and jelly sandwhiches, mac and cheese, pizza, french fries, chicken fingers, plain pasta, and bagels. Now, I personally enjoy all of those everyonce and a while, but to not even consider trying salmon, shrimp, lobster, eggs benedict, gnocchi, sauerbratten, stir fry, beef wellington, or a few of my personal favorites that basically horrified them is kinda sad. I mean, just tasting it probably won't do any harm unless you're allergic, which both denied. I guess I found it kinda sad, as one was invited to have a free meal at a client's restaurant who was a talented chief, and she ended up having mac and cheese.

I grew up in a household where my grandmother loved the boiled meal. Oh yes. One particular summer I remember where my grandfather got half a pig for some reason so she made boiled ham and veggies for almost a month straight. It was nasty because like anastasia mentioned, it was boiled grey veggies and bland meat.

Even to this day I'm definitely not a foodie because of that stuff. It wasn't until I went to college that I realized that some food actually tasted good. Hell, just using brown mustard on a turkey sandwich would elicit complaints from her because it was just too spicy. We're talking Gulden's mustard with a tiny squirt on the sandwich.

It was interesting to introduce her to a Chinese buffet in her mid 60s and carefully avoiding anything that might have both salt and pepper on it.

I love PB and J and eat it constantly! But I try other foods too.

Eddy that is crazy, who could eat bland meat like that? I don't like a lot of meat because for me at home it's hard to cook it the way I like it. I finally got into seasonings and totally different tastes right around the time I got married. Living here in England and going to mainland Europe a few times I got to try different things and I like SO much more than I did as a kid.

I don't get the gray veggie thing, ew do they really cook it until it's gray? WHY? I don't like a lot of veggies cooked but I like them to be crisp-tender, esp carrots. And avoiding anything with salt and pepper wow Eddy she was not adventurous at all was she?

The rule at our table was simple - we had to try something 5 times before we could officially take it off our list of things to eat. Taste changes over time, and this was a pretty good way of ensuring that we had made a significant effort at something before refusing it. I don't think that I quite made it to 5 times before eliminating beef tripe and chickens' feet from my list at chinese dimsum, but that method is how I grew to enjoy most of the food that I now eat.

Good for Mr. Marzovilla! I wish more parents would raise their children to be so well-rounded.

Jen M

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I used to work with a woman like that. She referred to herself (proudly! *snerk*) as "a hamburgers person." *eye roll*

She was an uber-breeder, too. Go figure.

Mainly, I just feel sorry for people like that. Food is CULTURE!
Jen M.

(05-31-2010 08:43 PM)Koi Wrote: [ -> ]tWhen my brothers and I were little we were usually given some of our parent's meal and preferred it to the boring children's menu. I can't stand dinning with adults who are afraid to try anything they consider " too exotic"-in one case sweet and sour chicken at the mall. I know 2 adult women who subsist on peanut butter and jelly sandwhiches, mac and cheese, pizza, french fries, chicken fingers, plain pasta, and bagels. Now, I personally enjoy all of those everyonce and a while, but to not even consider trying salmon, shrimp, lobster, eggs benedict, gnocchi, sauerbratten, stir fry, beef wellington, or a few of my personal favorites that basically horrified them is kinda sad. I mean, just tasting it probably won't do any harm unless you're allergic, which both denied. I guess I found it kinda sad, as one was invited to have a free meal at a client's restaurant who was a talented chief, and she ended up having mac and cheese.

(05-30-2010 07:18 PM)anastasia Wrote: [ -> ]I didn't realize until later that I was picky because the food on offer was downright horrible. Vegetables cooked until they turned grey and slimly (ewwwww…"Anastasia won't eat her vegetables!" I wonder why!), meat overcooked until it was hard, grey and black, everything boiled and fried to death--just try to get a fucking shrimp that wasn't fried into submission.

This was a big reason behind my pickiness, too. I hated meat until my twenties because my mother would cook the shit out of it. It was dry and rubbery and impossible to chew. She also loved to boil vegetables, which made them all soggy and gross. I ate the veggies, but I didn't like eating them.

Now, my father makes awesome steaks and burgers. I look forward to BBQs now because he knows how to cook meat. I was also ecstatic when my mom decided to try steaming the veggies. Steamed veggies are soooooooo much better than boiled. They're crisper, not bogged down with water, and just taste better. Prep can make or break a meal.

As for kid's menus, I don't get them. When I was a kid, we went out to dinner for a treat. Why the hell would we want to eat something we could eat any day at home? But I guess since people today eat more meals at restaurants than at home, they "need" that "safe" food.

I'm so glad I'm not the only one who loathes boiled veggies. I honestly think one of the reasons kids hate them so much is poor preparation methods that lazy mothers use. What gets me is that steaming isn't exactly difficult. Even a frozen dinner that is microwaved is better than boiled veggies.

Have to agree, nature got it right when it came to veggies, so you don't have to boil them down to slime. I prefer my fresh or steamed. The vitamins and nutrients are delicate in fruits and vegetables, so they're much healthier if lightly steamed or raw, as boiling tends to breakdown the chemical compounds that make them nourishing.

(06-03-2010 11:50 PM)Koi Wrote: [ -> ]Have to agree, nature got it right when it came to veggies, so you don't have to boil them down to slime. I prefer my fresh or steamed. The vitamins and nutrients are delicate in fruits and vegetables, so they're much healthier if lightly steamed or raw, as boiling tends to breakdown the chemical compounds that make them nourishing.

I never had crisp lovely flavorful steamed veg until I moved to England. I was shocked, SHOCKED at how good it was! Oh, and rare roast beef and Yorkshire pudding for xmas dinners--YUM! I resisted that at first because roast beef in Tennessee meant brown, tough shoe leather to be chewed for a couple of hours. Not in England with my boyfriend's parents doing the cooking!

Now that my diet is good and I know how to eat good stuff, I marvel at my best friend who is still stuck in redneckland and hasn't changed at all. He tells me the only way he can eat green beans is to have them overcooked until they are grey and slimy and then pork fat and onions are added in to give it some kind of "taste." He absolutely LOVES that, he's never had them steamed. And to give you an idea of the rest of his southern fried diet, last year at the age of 40 he had a gall bladder attack, and instead of heeding my advice to start eating right (I even did the research and found a CSA farm near him) he had surgery to have the organ removed instead. Hey, no one else he knows eats right, so why should he?

When I was little, I refused cooked vegetables at first, so my mother gave them all to me raw, and I ate them, much to my grandomther's horror. Eventually I learned to like them steamed or roasted, too, and now veggies are a very large part of my diet. If you're going to parent, you need to be a little flexible and creative. I know some people who refused all vegetables all their lives, and they also lost a lot of teeth. And I really think people who won't try different foods are morons. You don't have to do more than TASTE it. What the fuck is your problem?

I like a kiddy menu on the list, but only when its a small portion of what is served to adults ... which in most cases is enough to serve more then one person in most cases what is served cal wise is enough to serve two or three people.

I will order off the kid menu if I can get a chance to do so because its closer to what I can eat in a single setting without going over my carb load for a meal - but most places will not let an adult order a child meal, much less ask for a smaller portion (you have to cut it in half yourself and ask for a doggy bag).

But in general growing up, my mom boiled most meats ::gags:: to this day when she cooks she still does it, which is why DH and I have taken over cooking as much as possible so the veggies and meat at least are cooked not boiled to death.