Hi, gang.
Things at my job have become intolerable, and I think my boss is actually looking for an excuse to fire me (I can only hope for a layoff if that happens!) I really need to step up my job search.
I have always had trouble with references, for several reasons: temping, so hard to keep track of coworkers; people move or switch companies, so we lose contact; been a while since I've worked with someone; and in this case, trying to keep it a secret that I'm looking, so I don't feel safe in asking any of my immediate coworkers.
I have some personal references and references from people with whom I've worked on other projects not related to my current job; however, I WILL need references from my current company.
Does anyone have any suggestions on how I could go about getting these?
Also, it's important to know that the culture at my company is poisonous and abusive. I am not the only person who has been mistreated, and I will likely not be the last.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated!
Jen M.
If this were the case for me, I would tell a prospective employer that you are not comfortable giving references to your current employer until near the end. Explain that they would not be happy with you looking for another job. That said, if they are very serious about hiring you and want to check your current employer as a final step, then this would be acceptable.
I've known a few people who do this... the last step to them getting hired and the first that their current employer knew about their plans to leave was that phone call. Most companies should be understanding of this.
Ok. I'm hesitant to say that, but if you think it would be a safe thing to do, I will keep it in mind. Thanks!
I was under the impression that saying something like that might make me look bad or like I was hiding something.
Jen
Well, I recently attended a couple classes about resume writing, I was told no one really puts down references anymore, you just state that they are available upon request. Although I don't know how much time that would buy you, but when they asked you could explain a bit more.
An acceptable practice is to say "My current employer is unaware I am seeking employment elsewhere therefore, I do not have any current references".
As far as past employment, as long as you list your previous employers and phone numbers, they can check up on you with regards to length of employment, etc.
What I'm wondering is if you go to an interview, the first question a prospective employer will ask is "Why are you looking for another job?" The golden rule is to not say anything bad about a previous employer. If you admit there's a problem working for a current employer, they'll assume the problem is you, not your employer So how do you say that your current employer is wonderful, but you don't want to work there anymore?
I can see the problem of getting work related references if you were temping and didn't get to stay very long at the places you worked. Maybe you could state that. You didn't say how long you were at each place, but an employer should understand that if you're temping, you might not have rock solid work references. If you were temping through an agency, I would give the name of the person you dealt with at the agency. They usually get a report from their clients about the performance of the temps they sent. As far as getting references from present co-workers, I can't see anyone asking for that if you're still working there. If they do, I would follow Ziggy's suggestion.
Just tell them the job is no longer a challenge or you need a change or you fear you are going to be laid off due to slow business so you are being proactive by finding another job.
I do stick to the "I'm looking for an opportunity to better utilize and expand upon my existing skills" line. It's partly the truth--I'm NOT challenged by my job, and there IS no growth potential for admins where I work. In fact, other admins have noticed this too, our work is being shifted to research assistants. My company does not value administrative staff.
The problem is with references. You all have given very good advice.
To answer Dog's question, this is the 3rd group in which I've worked at this same company. I have been with the company for 9 years. All 3 groups have been seriously fucked up and dysfunctional. Yes, I have had my own issues in terms of performance and what have you, but I have spent a lot of time looking at that and working on it, and I'm confident in saying I am not the problem. The culture there is very broken.
I can go back to a few coworkers from those previous groups, but there is no guarantee they will provide references for me. I also have friends who used to work at my company who may or may not be willing to give me a reference.
It's just as sticky situation. I really appreciate everyone's input.
Jen M.
I'll chime in on a couple questions here.
With references it is commonly accepted to not list your current employer because often people will look for a job without their boss knowing. This shouldn't be a huge red flag. Now if you aren't listing your past few employers you might have a problem.
Since you are a temp (and so am I) you actually have some options. The most straightforward is to simply list your temp agency itself as the reference. Use a general contact number unless you have a specific person that you talk to frequently. The drawback is that they might give an HR response to inquiries which is dates of employment, salary earned, and maybe if they'd hire you again.
Personally I try to bypass that by listing the actual coworkers I've been with, especially the ones who were my on-site supervisors. They are the ones you've worked with and can better describe what you are like. From the sound of your situation you might be better off not doing this and going for the HR response.
As for leaving a job, the best response is to say that you no longer find it a challenge or that it doesn't match your career goals. In either case be prepared for the inevitable questions regarding what you find challenging or what your goals are. Never ever badmouth an employer no matter how much they deserve it.
Several reasons for that last statement. Number one is that if you start complaining it makes you look like a whiner and not a team player. (I hate the phrase team player so much.) Even if they totally suck you're the one who comes across badly. Number two is that if you bash your current employer, what will you say about them if they hire you? Third is that you don't know who the interviewer knows. You could get blackballed in a small town or in a very tightly focused industry. One other consideration is that if you are hired they'll be watching you closely.
As much as it sucks, sometimes you just have to play nice.
References -- if you have a pal or mentor at your current job, even if they aren't your direct supervisor, but they have a fairly respectable position (not the front desk receptionist, in other words!), ask if they would be comfortable giving you a reference. It's not like your job performance is a secret only your boss knows -- others know, too!
Actually, Eddy, I am not a temp. I have been a permanent employee with this (awful, dysfunctional) company for 9 years. I have been looking for a new job for the past 3 of those 9 years, however. This is the kind of job that hurts your resume: Virtually no movement for those 9 years. In fact, in terms of use of my skills, I have gone BACKWARD. I am UNDEREMPLOYED. Sad but true.
Your advice is really good, and these are all things I am already doing, so I know that I'm on the right track. Something should turn up for me soon. I know very well not to complain about a job when trying to get one. I stick to the "want to expand my skills and face new challenges" angle.
Thanks!
Jen M.
(05-29-2010 12:36 AM)Eddy Wrote: [ -> ]I'll chime in on a couple questions here.
With references it is commonly accepted to not list your current employer because often people will look for a job without their boss knowing. This shouldn't be a huge red flag. Now if you aren't listing your past few employers you might have a problem.
Since you are a temp (and so am I) you actually have some options. The most straightforward is to simply list your temp agency itself as the reference. Use a general contact number unless you have a specific person that you talk to frequently. The drawback is that they might give an HR response to inquiries which is dates of employment, salary earned, and maybe if they'd hire you again.
Personally I try to bypass that by listing the actual coworkers I've been with, especially the ones who were my on-site supervisors. They are the ones you've worked with and can better describe what you are like. From the sound of your situation you might be better off not doing this and going for the HR response.
As for leaving a job, the best response is to say that you no longer find it a challenge or that it doesn't match your career goals. In either case be prepared for the inevitable questions regarding what you find challenging or what your goals are. Never ever badmouth an employer no matter how much they deserve it.
Several reasons for that last statement. Number one is that if you start complaining it makes you look like a whiner and not a team player. (I hate the phrase team player so much.) Even if they totally suck you're the one who comes across badly. Number two is that if you bash your current employer, what will you say about them if they hire you? Third is that you don't know who the interviewer knows. You could get blackballed in a small town or in a very tightly focused industry. One other consideration is that if you are hired they'll be watching you closely.
As much as it sucks, sometimes you just have to play nice.
Sadly, I don't. The culture of this place does not support that. They even took away the classes they used to offer in various software packages (ie, more advanced Word, Excel, PowerPoint, Access classes.)
They don't seem to like it when people interact too much. You have to keep everything kind of superficial. It's creepy.
Jen
(05-29-2010 09:13 AM)PrairieGirl Wrote: [ -> ]References -- if you have a pal or mentor at your current job, even if they aren't your direct supervisor, but they have a fairly respectable position (not the front desk receptionist, in other words!), ask if they would be comfortable giving you a reference. It's not like your job performance is a secret only your boss knows -- others know, too!
Some companies just do a background and credit check these days. They don't seem to trust references. Plus, when I left my job they said that they would only give out information about salary and length of employment to my future employers.
Don't get me started about using credit checks to screen out people!
I was told by my former employer (where I was just laid off) that employers are no allowed to say anything bad about past employees. I'm not sure if that's true but one would have to wonder what the point was in giving / calling references if that was the case.
I agree with Noelle. Most of the time they just want to confirm that you were indeed employed at ABC company during the period you said.
(06-02-2010 09:40 AM)NKBurlington Wrote: [ -> ]I was told by my former employer (where I was just laid off) that employers are no allowed to say anything bad about past employees. I'm not sure if that's true but one would have to wonder what the point was in giving / calling references if that was the case.
I agree with Noelle. Most of the time they just want to confirm that you were indeed employed at ABC company during the period you said.
I think it's because so many people sued former employers for giving them bad references...
Noelle, I think you are right, and I totally agree with you about credit checks by employers. I THINK there is a movement to put a stop to that, but I can't remember where I read that.
I thought that some employers still wanted CHARACTER references?
All of you have been very helpful. I will stick with the HR reference and dig up personal reference only if asked. The problem, though, is that some companies want references when you apply, or they won't even look at your resume. For now, I just don't apply to those. One may come along one day, however, that I want to jump on. Guess I'll cross that bridge when I get there.
Thanks!
Jen
(06-02-2010 11:29 AM)Bittercat Wrote: [ -> ]The problem, though, is that some companies want references when you apply, or they won't even look at your resume.
Really? I thought reference calling was the last thing they did - not the first. Why bother calling references before they've even met you?
I dunno, but many of the job listings I've seen, including one I'm applying for today, have asked for "cover letter, resume, references, and (whatever writing or art or portfolio materials.)"
It's ridiculous.
Jen
I've seen it too B'Cat-ads asking for references along with your resume, which doesn't make a whole lot of sense. I also see ads where they want your salary expectations along with the resume. I hate that. Just tell me what the job pays and I'll tell you if it's acceptable or not. I don't want my resume to automatically go in the garbage or be deleted because my guess at what the job pays is off the mark. In the field I'm in, some places pay crap wages for the position-close to minimum wage-and other places pay over $20/hour for the same position, so guessing what a company pays for the position is a total crap shoot.
The most ridiculous ad I saw asked for resume-the actual wording is : "Please send interesting illustrated resume including samples of projects and project-related correspondence." So they want people to e-mail them projects they've worked on in the past before people are even considered for an interview. WTF! First of all, I have a protfolio of projects I've done in the past, but it's a hard copy only (paper copy) so it can't be e-mailed and I'm not going to scan it to be e-mailed. I'll gladly show an interviewer the hard copy of work I've done. Secondly, the portfolio of work I've done technically and legally belongs to the employers I worked for in the past. So even showing it to another employer is a no-no, but it's the only way of showing what I've done in the past. So there's no way I'm going to e-mail a project that I have done that isn't legally mine and belongs to someone else, especially when all of the paperwork has a past employer's name and logo on it. That's asking for trouble.
Do you have a volunteer job that you could use as a reference? I used the president of the board of the animal shelter as a reference. Why not - she knew my work and I didn't want to use my current boss at the time...
When an ad requests that I put my salary expectations in my cover letter, I put "Salary: Negotiable". If that's not good enough for them, fuck 'em. I probably don't want to work for that kind of company anyway.
I saw an ad that requested the subject line of the email include the job title and salary expectations. I quote "Any email received that does not include salary in the subject line will be automatically deleted" To me, this would suggest that if your salary was too high, they wouldn't even bother opening your email.
Sorry, I'm not going apply to your sorry-ass job.