Oh, on another note, I recently came across a great story explaining asexuality:
It's like this: you're born into a world where, upon maturity, everyone gets a pet elephant which is invisible to everyone but themselves. Society is structured around the needs of peoples' elephants. People talk about the elephants and their foibles incessantly. The mass media includes the elephants in every story ever as major plot points. Until you hit the age where you get your own elephant, you can't see them, but you're assured that you'll get your own when you grow up and then you'll understand everything.
So you grow up, you reach the Age of Elephant Acquisition, and... no elephant. You infer that elephants exist--after all, people keep insisting they must, and people your age have started talking about their elephants and how wonderful and interesting they are, and also people with fairly unusual elephants are willing to do truly baffling things for the elephants' sake. Probably, you think, the elephants exist, but you're not sure, because you've never experienced anything that seems like an elephant of your own, and couldn't it be possible that this is some sort of elaborate plot or mass delusion or something?
But people keep insisting that the elephants are totally real, and everyone else your age has started talking about how their elephants are doing. And you're seriously the only one who is confused by the elephants thing, so you maybe try to casually bring it up--maybe you sort of try to ask people how their elephants look in casual conversation, because it's possible that you do have an elephant and you just haven't noticed! Possibly they are in fact very small and hard to see, but they cause a lot of mischief! After all, sometimes funny rustling things happen around you, too, just like they do to people who do have elephants. So you try to ask around, in case it's something that you can miss, or you're not interpreting things right, and you look very hard for things that can be interpreted as being sort of vaguely elephantine. But when you do ask them, people give you funny looks and treat you as if you're stupid for asking, because duh they know what an elephant looks like. Everyone has one! All you have to do is look, it's not like they're hard to see!
You see how this can become frustrating.
Eventually you assume you are, in fact, different and not just unobservant, and try to construct the image of what an elephant looks like so that you can understand properly. But no one who has one will sit down with you and answer your questions and help you understand, even if you're really stubborn and you ask a lot of people a lot of questions. You end up having to construct your understanding of the elephant from tiny snippets, little bits of information you can coax out of normal people before they get aggravated and change the subject. And of course everyone emphasizes different parts of what the elephant is, because everyone is different and thinks about things differently, and you have to try to pick at the distortions as best you can.
That's what it's like, being asexual and trying to define sexual attraction on its own. Or being aromantic-ish, and trying to define how romance works. I suppose being agender and trying to suss out gender identity is similar, and I bet there's other parallels to make. The thing is: you don't have something, and you're trying to understand how it works, and no one who says they understand will try very hard to teach you what it's like.
(06-16-2011 11:27 AM)Truckerswife Wrote: [ -> ]...But, just FYI I will never bow down to being P.C for anyone.
Sorry!
But FYI I never judge anyone either. To each their own.
....
Nobody asked you to be PC. In fact nobody asked for your opinion at all on this thread. You came on here sounding all preachy (intended or not) and the topic was seeking other people who had the same or similar feelings as the poster. I don't understand why you even replied to this thread. I didn't because it doesn't apply to me. Just because you have opinions doesn't mean anybody wants to hear them.
Jo, your last post was a very good one. I've never thought of asexuality that way. In fact, reading this thread has opened my eyes to a lot of things I've never thought of or encountered.
"But FYI I never judge anyone either."
TW - The problem is that you COMPLETELY judged a whole bunch of people with your comments. You judge people openly, either by suggesting that they would be better off married or that they shouldn't seek labels or that they are silly enough to not be male or female. You may apologise for it later, but you cannot say that you are not judgmental. There's no need to be politically correct but it would be nice if you didn't attack people and their beliefs. If you don't feel that you attacked them then perhaps you shouldn't comment at such length on topics that confuse you. Adding 'LMAO' after an ignorant and mean statement does not turn it into a joke.
Jo - OMG, I'm not one for labels (I'm fine with them, but I'm also very lucky to be mostly happy with who I am and don't feel the need to label myself) but I *love* the term aromantic (other than I read it as aromatic initially). Mind you, that term describes most engineers
I'd describe myself as being able to see elephants (although it took me a while to figure out they exist) but I don't like caring for them and prefer to see mine run wild. If we happen to cross paths then I enjoy the company but I find them to be too much work to maintain and inevitably lose interest. I would almost be asexual except that I can see them, but I see them so rarely that they do tend to confuse me and most of them scare me away (mostly because I would have described myself as asexual well into my 20s). Nice story!
It seems like this has shifted lately from GLBT to asexual. I think it's OK.
There is something I'd like to ask. I hope this will not upset anyone; as I would't mean to upset anyone.
If you are a confirmed asexual, would you ever desire to change? I'm just curious. I'd like to know what goes on in a confirmed asexual's head.
I told my sister, one time, about asexuality. She had never heard of it.
She asked me if that's a California thing. I had heard of it many years ago when I was living in the east coast.
I do agree that this culture has become so obsessed with sex that many people feel that there's something wrong with them if they are not interested in sex. I go through that sometimes. Sometimes I wonder what I really am.
I just have to say that, for me, it would be ideal to be a friend with a guy that is asexual. I'm so sick of knowing guys that have had kids.
Tommy,
It's a fair enough question, and even more so because you aren't trying to generalise (you aren't asking if all asexuals would desire to change) yet I want to mention that the answer for the whole group is probably 'some do, and some don't'.
If you had asked me 8 years ago, when (had I known about the labels) I would have described myself as a confirmed asexual, I would have said that I was happy the way I was but a small part of me wouldn't have minded changing to become more 'socially normal'. Now, matured a bit, I wouldn't have minded staying that way. I 'changed' because I met a couple men in my life that have 'everything' which for me is a large part intellectual (an emotional maturity that doesn't reside in youth, so men of my age became more attractive to me in time). There are no absolutes though, so I'm sure that some asexuals would like to change and others are happy with how they are.
I have no idea why but I'm amused that your sister asked if asexuality is a California thing... Maybe because it says something about how she views California
I am not a *confirmed* asexual, but I strongly lean towards asexuality, and I have no desire to change. Like Zig said, there is an element about being 'socially normal' that some days rears its head, but on the whole, I don't really care what people think. I am lucky in that I don't feel lonely, so I have no desire to couple up to combat lonlieness either. I don't feel the need to pair bond or reproduce.
Why would I want a sex drive? I don't know the answer to that question. Why would anyone WANT one. It seems like way more trouble than it's worth, all in the name of an orgasm that lasts a few seconds. I wouldn't want to revolve my whole life chasing after that. It's like Wiener and Schwartzenegger and Clinton, and all those yo yos who either lost their jobs or respect or whatever just because they couldnt keep it in their pants. What's the thrill in that?
Well, we do get to make all those Weiner jokes.
BTW, I'm eslbee using my miserable netbook on our trip, which doesn't "officially" start for another couple of days. This won't handle my AOL accounts. Just don't want to mislead anybody.
The last couple of answers were good. But I would love to spend a good amount of time with an asexual just to talk. I'm sure I would get more details.
Another question I have is - are you ever attracted to someone? What I mean is that you see someone, and then do you fantisize about them?
What about masterbation?
I feel like if you are attracted to someone sexually, but are not in a relationship and don't care to be, then your celebate not asexual. I feel like there's a big difference between being celebate and asexual.
As far as being asexual vs. being married and lonely, a married person can feel very lonely and unfulfilled while the asexual does not feel lonely at the same time. Not always the case, but sometimes. It would be horrible to be married and feel lonely. I've known people like that and I don't envy them.
I do agree about Weiner, Clinton, and Swartzenager. Bear in mind that women cheat, too. I know because I've been there. I've had married women make passes at me. And I was not even trying for anything like that. It just happened.
Again, some people who describe themselves as asexual are likely to be occasionally attracted by others, and some not. Some will masterbate and others not. It's not a straight-forward world.
I would agree that those who tend to be sexually attracted to others but don't act on it are not really asexual. Which is why I wouldn't label myself that way. Still, I am very close to it. I am not attracted to someone sexually if I don't know them. Which is likely why I felt asexual for years - I never met anyone that really intrigued me. When I see someone who is 'hot' I appreciate looking at them, but I don't want to have sex with them (and my standards seem to be much higher than most as I don't find most celebrities who make the 'hot' lists are attractive). I'm fine with the concept of porn (I don't mind that others watch it, provided the participants are treated well) but I don't understand it and have no desire to watch it. It doesn't seem to have the same effect as it does on others.
I don't fantasize about others. I'll occasionally dream about specific men, but those are the ones that I have a strong emotional connection with. And the dreams aren't sexual in nature (so I don't think they qualify as fantasies).
I masterbate but mostly because my biology teacher told my class years ago that it's a great way of reducing pain during a woman's periods. So I can have a physical effect on my body, and in that way I can be sexual, but it's purely physical manipulation in order to relax my muscles and reduce the pain during a really bad month.
Glad it wasn't just me!
Jen M.
(06-16-2011 10:05 AM)Ziggy Wrote: [ -> ]Jo, what a thoughtful intelligent reply. I couldn't even begin to say anything in response, in part because it made me rather angry from the start...
Jo, this was so beautifully written, and my experience (how I relate to other genders) is true to this.
Your description of your male friend whose brain isn't wired like other males pretty much describes my boyfriend. Male by birth, identifies as male, cisgendered (as far as I can tell,) straight, thinks differently from your typical guy. (My dream man, to be honest!) Come to think of it, I've always been most strongly attracted to men-born-men who are wired more like women. I have not yet dated a trans man, but I'm guessing it would not bother me, as long as he was honest from the start about who he is. (I don't like dishonesty.)
I'm happy being female, but I don't like the cycles of my body. I'm not using my reproductive capacity, so the periods,honestly, are a nuisance. Other than that, I love being a woman.
I guess what you would call me, techincally, is gender-blind, not sexually, but in how I relate to other people. I accept people as they identify, and I address them that way, because I respect who they are, and I want them to be happy with who they are.
I wish more of the world were like that.
Jen M.
(06-16-2011 08:21 AM)Jo Wrote: [ -> ]TW:
I identify as 'genderqueer' which means I am not comfortable with the gender binary (the idea that there are only two genders) and I think I'm somewhere in the grey area. There are not just two.
I think you are confusing gender and sexuality.
Sexuality is who you are ATTRACTED to. You can be attracted to men, women, both, neither... identify as heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, pansexual, asexual... Pansexuals are attracted to people, not gender. Asexuals are attracted to no one, regardless of gender.
Sex is often how you were sexed at birth, that is to say, quite obviously, what is between your legs. Contrary to what you think, there are not just two sexes (although most infants are sexed as one or the other upon a cursory glance of the genitals). Some are born female (XX chromosome), some male (XY chromosome) and some are born INTERSEX. This is a variation on the binary. You could have XXXY chromosomes or some combination of that. You could have a vagina and undescended testicles. You can have the physical anatomy of both a male and a female. In the old days, they called this hermaphrodite. The new politically correct term is 'intersex'. It's waaaaay more common than you think. Also, hormones play into this. Some women have very high testosterone levels, for example.
Gender is who you ARE. It is described as "What is between the ears". It's how you identify. No one can tell you what gender you are... only you know that. The term "cisgendered" (Pronounced Siss-gendered) is for people who feel good about the body they were born into -- that is to say they were born in a female-sexed body and identify as female. They may be straight or a lesbian, but they are cisgendered.
I (for example) don't fall into this category. Some genderqueer people (or gender fluid or gender variant) people fall into what is called "transgendered", that is to say they identify as the OTHER gender, and often will dress or get surgeries so their body matches their brain. Someone like me (for example) is 'tomboyish' or goes by a gender-neutral name or doesn't mind if I get mistaken for a male... stuff like that. I'm somewhere in the middle, and I get actually angry about things like my period or my breasts. It seems unfair that I am saddled with them. A lot of women LIKE their bodies, and like their cycles. I don't. Male-bodied genderqueers are often called 'femmes' or seem very un-masculine. They may wear makeup or not, act effeminate or not. I have a gender variant friend who looks and acts VERY male and he was born male. But his brain is not wired like other males.
TW, just so you know, everything you wrote above would be considered VERY offensive to anyone who doesn't abide by the gender binary. I am not a goat, and I don't know what that has to do with anything. Nor am I intersex (hermaphrodite, as you say, but again, that is politically incorrect). I only have XX chromosomes (just recently had a DNA test, too, so that's pretty certain), however my gender is between my ears, not my legs. I am only attracted to males, so to the outside world, I appear to be a cisgendered heterosexual female, but I am not.
Not everything is black and white. Not everything is that simple, just because you don't like the idea of grey area.
The easiest way to get it might be to imagine something that you are/take for granted... say married to Bob. Imagine if that were considered completely abnormal and freakish and people called you a goat because they didn't understand. Say you lived in a society where ONLY women married women, and you were married to a man and ridiculed for it. It's just basic empathy.
Hello! I just introduced myself in the Coffee Shop forum. I've identified as lesbian for several years; I was bisexually-identified before that, and straight before that. I still feel physical attraction to both (or all!) genders, but am emotionally or relationally attracted only to women, and feel strongly about the political implications of lesbianism although I'm not a separatist.
I have a wonderful life partner, and we have fairly good domestic partner protection in our state. Neither of us enjoy children - she even less than me. But alas, most of our queer women friends have gone breeder .... and I absolutely can't tell them what I really think about that without being considered anti-feminist. I struggle a lot with this new pro-natal shift in my community, which is truly a pro-natal mentality, it's not about adoption. They say they are queering reproduction and the family - in my view, the only way truly to queer reproduction is to NOT reproduce, and to find other ways of being involved in children's lives if you want that (adoption, teaching, mentoring, etc.) As Mo, from "Dykes to Watch Out For", put it: "queers should change the world, not diapers".
Welcome, Loumac. You'll find MANY of a like mind here!
Jen M.